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hyphen

Duh, they're trying to pretend that THE MOST SHAMEFUL THING THEY'VE EVER DONE never happened. They don't want to see swastikas, x'ed out swastikas, text books which make reference to the Holocaust et. all. They've been doing this since they cleared the rubble. It's called denial and it's being encouraged on a national level. Like when your Gran'pa's a kiddy diddler and no one EVER brings him up at Thanksgiving.

Vanessa

Yeah, but apparently nobody gives a shit when a major German newspaper refers to all Italians as "mama's boys" and "parasites" during the World Cup. "Parasite," for the uninitiated, was one of Hitler's favorite pejoratives used in reference to his least favorite ethnic groups. In other words, the use of symbols is outlawed and enforced, yet straight up Nazi behavior is a-ok. I guess nobody wanted to be the bummer at the World Cup moneyfest and go and make a big deal out of something trifling like that. Obviously, outlawing the symbols is not particularly effective in doing away with the jerk off behavior. I think Germany needs to enact laws like this because they hope to put on a face for the rest of the world AND because they don't trust themselves to NOT get all weird on us again. I'm no psychologist, but all this denial and guilt might create a lot of resentment on many levels that could be very, very dangerous. They need to confront that shit with no blinders and move on. Easier said than done I guess. But hey, they fucked with my people and we do forgive them as long as they've got their fascism tightly leashed. This is very important considering the current state of Europe. If there are things going on that might cause fascism to rise, they need to deal with them sanely, rationally, and out in the open. Let's face it. Is it wise, considering their recent history, to expect the German people to deal with a massive influx of aggressively non-assimilationist immigrants? I don't know, but I think it's a good question. Peace.

* DONNIE *

I'm pretty sure that Youtube is a private company and they can post, or refuse post, whatever the fuck they want. Democracy and freedom of speech are not remotely relevant.

patric fallon

hey hyphen, you an idiot? ever spend any time in germany? ever talk to any germans? they feel very deeply and radically about this issue because they are ashamed their country commited the atrocities of the holocaust. they outlawed swastikas directly after the war to stamp out their useage. no, it's not an americans' understanding of freedom, but remember what your political science teacher taught you in high school about the nazi's constitutional right to march in the united states and how many people wanted to take that right from them and how a jewish lawer fom the american civil liberties union defended that right (see: http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/strwhe.html). don't be ignorant. no one's trying to pretend the nazi's didn't exsit, they are trying to prevent a very powerful, historic, and loaded symbol from spreading. yes, there is shame there, but what would you prefer?
and vanessa, yeah, i agree, to some extent. watch out for the dangers that are already here - blatant facism in france, blatantly racist policies being enacted in england. but bashing the opposing team during the world cup is not really on the level of facism. germany has the largest number of turkish people outside turkey. they have a huge unassimilated muslim population and suprisingly little incident of hate crimes. and their soccer hooligans are nothing compared to say argentina's, england's, brasil's - shit, i don't think one person was killed by german hooligans, despite their "racist" team love.
can we all stop being racist against germans now? these self righteous tirades about germans being nazis or denying nazi crimes is adolecent.

Jason

To be fair, ALL Italian guys ARE momma's boys. I dated an Italian girl, she confirmed.

Vanessa

Patric-
I hear you, and if you've seen any of my other posts, I'm well established as an opponent of any kind of racism. However, the comments about Italians were not directed at the soccer team, they were directed at Italians in general and in particular the large contingent of Italian immigrants living in Germany. As a holocaust scholar, I can also tell you that the word "parasite" is distinct for its place in Nazi vernacular. It would be ridiculous to call a bunch of millionaire footballers parasites, don't you think? A large newspaper would not print words like that if it did not feel the support of its audience.
As far as German soccer hooligans are concerned, I believe that they did in fact viciously murder some folks at Paris '98 and are known to be on a level with the worst of the worst. Yes, they behaved when they hosted, but I don't think they want to fuck with their own kind when they're trying to look good for the rest of the world. Altogether, soccer hooliganism, particularly in Europe, has chilled out significantly in recent years. They're just a small handful of infants anyways.
Yes, Germany does have a relatively good record regarding hate crimes against minorities, but I can't help but wonder what would/will happen if those minorities start gaining more power at the voting booth and more representation in govt., etc. If Germany turns into a fractured cauldron of alleged have and have not cultures like France or Denmark, look out. For me, this brings up the obvious question, how does Germany keep the peace with all those different groups? I don't know.
Personally, I think it's wrong for any kind of democratic state to outlaw any human expression. If that democracy is strong, it should naturally, without the enactment of laws, absorb and liquidate fascism while maintaining its integrity. By banning any free expression, especially the fascist, a democracy actually gives into that fascism it so deeply abhors.
Yes, you're right about racism against the Germans. It's ridiculous and ill-informed. We need to create a memory where the people who were and are good are the ones who are first and foremost remembered. It's the only way to go. In the end, let's face it, Germany is a massive conundrum. Anyone who goes too far one way or the other in judging the place and its people is completely nuts.

Vanessa

Jason-
Yeah, I know. But don't tell my husband Tony, okay?

andreas

problem is not the strenght of german democracy but the high acceptance of fascist opinions and parties, especially in rural areas. and don't even think about the ex-gdr, east germany. anyway, the decision of the court is ridiculous.

marcusbondi

Young krauts are the mellowest race i have ever met; almost to soft and tolerant and that seems to be getting tehir whole country into trouble. i wish (for their sake) they had the same racial pride quotient as the chinese, japanese, nigerians, turks and jews have. The nazi element has to be extereme because they are so way in the minority. pity.

what?

is this imdb or what? jesus. take it easy

timbo

@Vanessa
It was on the online page of a magazine and quickly retracted when controversy ensued.
Mainly because it was not acceptable to the majority of said magazines readership.

Vanessa

I knew a young German guy a couple years ago. He came to America for grad school. Whenever he was around someone important/powerful (a prof for example) he toed the racial line, but as soon as he got around his peers, he was suddenly "n!gger" this "n!gger" that all the time. He hated living in our town because it's primarily working class and about 50% black. He showed no respect whatsoever for the racial divisions that everyone was struggling with and trying to overcome, nor did he attempt to see anything worthwhile in our culture. He was one of the biggest fuckers I've ever met, totally contrary to Marcus' picture of the mellow young German. What bothered me the most about him was his duplicitous personna. On one hand he was the sychophantic good boy while on the other he was the vicious Nazi to a tee. The dick also drank Pabst all day washed down with tons of hot dogs. Sad thing is he probably became a professor at an American university. Nonetheless, I don't see all Germans in this light. I look forward to one day meeting a cool German. And they should have a lot of pride in who they are. Germans make the best cars, beer, and most important of all, 20th century art. Max Beckmann anyone? Ernst Ludwig Kirchner? Georg Grosz? Otto Dix? Kathe Kollwitz? The list goes on and on...

patric fallon

i did mean the hooligans of today's world cup.

no, it wouldn't be ridiculous to call footballers parasites - it's a way to reve people up for the home team. sorry, that's sports. you catch the posting a while back about the all blacks pre rugby match psych-out dance? they want to eat their opponents.

and i'm sorry but democracy does not "naturally, without the enactment of laws, absorb and liquidate fascism." democracy is just a system of votes, not a magic wand. as people often point out, hitler was voted into office. george w bush was voted into office. we in the US are currently entangled in all sorts of mildly fascist regulations born of our democracy. we are ruled by laws, police, military - that's rule by force, that's fascism - but the majority chooses those laws, police, military budgets - that's democracy. the two are not mutually exclusive.
sure, fascism can overwhelm democracy and replace the system of majority rule with a dictatorship, but that's all democracy is, majority rule. if the majority wants segregation, the majority gets segregation. if the majority wants "a return to christian values" that's what it will get. not prefect, but what are you gonna do.

ps: liberal democracy says democracy has to abide by rules to protect individual rights (rule of democracy by previously determined rules), but who determines the rules that rule? et cetera blah blah blah, and really, that's a whole other discussion.

patric

and, uh, yeah, i've met a lot of racist assholes from a lot of different places, the south for instance. i've met a lot of racist black people, mexicans, crazy racist asians racist against fucking EVERYbody... what's your point? oh, right, bringing it back to the art. otto dix could not have happened without the war - which do you like better?

i'm not trying to be an asshole

sorry. i retract the hypothetical choice.

Kerry

The whole world is racist - it's not just white races. The Germans of today are deeply conscious of their country's role in the Holocaust - surely the hysteria attached to the symbol of the swastika, to the point where its usage becomes an offence even where it in no way condones the Nazis, shows just how marked the country's resistance to Nazi fascim has become as a whole.

Dutchie

The real victim is the swastika. It's one of the most beautiful and strong signs in graphic design and no one can ever use it again because of the Germans in WW2. Too bad, because despite of what they did they were on top of their style and graphics. Does anyone here agree with me that no army has ever looked as good as the SS? How about the Totenkopfdivision? Fucking brilliant. They stole my grandparents bike, but looked great doing it.

Vanessa

Yes, I do agree with you regarding style. When I was 12 I dressed like an SS chick for halloween and lost my virginity while trick or treating. Have you ever seen the goose stepping swastika with jackboots that Hitler drew? And they say he was a failed artist. Please. His shit was so bad ass they had to make it illegal. I'm sure that fashion was a potent lure in getting many of their would be enemies to collaborate.

patric fallon

absolutly!

all SS had two lightning bolt tatoos under their right armpits - how fucking brilliant, uber-cool is that? hipsters take note

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